Hi Ben and all

Sorry for not having checked this for a while, feeling somewhat self-conscious after my small rant

I will say no more at the moment about how I feel about the issue

Maybe all have different experiences of the issue - culturally and generationally

I will say one more thing. I have started taking the Spanish approach of regarding padre as genderless. I could possibly accept a genderless version of oppressive patriarchy. I contradicted my statement about not saying anymore so here goes. Who in our lives defines how we are expected to be as gender or anything. How about a world when one subgroup of something tries to encourage another group to be different then punished them or rejects them if they do change. Seriously. No wonder "men"'s psychology has been messed up. "We all want men to behave like this". "No we don't" :) Look at culture, every part of it and what defines everything

Which is why I tried (from a position of not being trained in it) to have a go at aspects of radicalism and Marxist perspectives for starters. Manipulative and extreme. Needs to have conflict allegedly to progress. Not much evidence of progress from where I sit. I see a world where many issues are getting much worse and some interests are doing very nicely thankyou very much

Finally (sorry) many of us have been bullied and cruelly oppressed by all kinds of forces through our lives. Who or what is responsible for that is I think more complicated than men-bad women-good. And after my experience of life I am staring to unapologetically call out this stuff when I see it. My other Society/Professional Afiilation (ATM) is Psychology. I made not practice but I came close enough and was trained enough to have an ethic which cares about every individual's well being and right to be who or what they want. That's how I read the code anyway. Strangely that was what I naively thought  feminism was all about too.

Sorry. Final parting shot since I am feeling brave after a nice whisky on New Year's Day. It slipped my mind. Hold this space. Related to something very serious about causes for men's heath problems (mental and physical) that have precious little to do with any alleged patriarchy. If it comes to me I will add to my comment. It involves controlling forces of some description tearing apart their lives and opportunities. Nothing to do with entitlement. Many serious psychological problems are linked with loss and control of some kind. Do I sound as if I hate radicalism that much. Many of us are radical in different things and its all part of the process of progress allegedly. But punishing the wrong people is not a good approach in any struggle. What would the Marxists say about that. I was just trained in maths and science and stuff like that. Sorry for another rant (I did not intend) but I believe it all relates to the topic of (men's) health and I feel that issues are constantly derailed by issues such as Patriarchy and other radical stuff  -which apparently became so dominant in some major institutions we all have a right to be concerned - I forgot. Related rubbish is the use of over simplistic use of so-called privilege to silence voices. Don't fall for that extreme control

The remarkable thing is, given this is a statistics forum it all relates very closely to flawed use of over simplistic statistical approaches to anything

Oh look at that cis-gendered straight white male trying to raise awareness of the cruel oppressiveness he has been fighting his whole life. No it isn't "patriarchy" that was responsible. Not in the way most people use the term. It comes down to abuse of all means of control. And it is truly frightening when you see so many flawed narratives becoming the accepted wisdom so much that others are silenced. So-called progressive feminist allies are just supposed to accept injustice and abuse of human rights are we? That relates to men's health too in case you think I am off topic. Some of us have a lifetime of genuine experience of injustice due to extremism. Sorry I do not accept that level of extremism in any struggle. Sorry for having a professional and personal individual ethic of well-being. That is also used against us by the extremists. Probably have more clinical experience and ethical consideration than most in this forum. It is the clinical ethic of care of a client/patient and in my view should never be subjugated by other considerations no matter how well meaning. Isn't it the ethic most providers have to their clients

And when I talked about not feeling safe posting this stuff under my name I wasn't joking but am getting beyond caring. Time is running out. I that not ridiculous in any world where anyone feels genuinely unsafe discussing the above issues under their own name. What sort of progress was that?

regards Duncan

Sorry John, the cryptic comment was for Duncan, not yourself! Seems like my own comment suffered from cryptic-ness :P

Your comments about societal structures mirror points in the book I was referring to. The reason I found the book useful was it did connect with a lot of my experiences growing up as a boy.  Having spent some time engaging in introspection related to various other topics, hearing this perspective on masculinity and socialisation in a patriarchal society connected some more dots for me.

Hi John, As it happens I am reading this book now. I heard the author on a podcast and he was very impressive - though of course he is partly employed by the American Enterprise Institute so many people would brand him a neo-Liberal patriarchal conservative. He really is not, as anyone who listens to him will realise.

The raw figures he cites are not contested and if they applied to women there would be HUNDREDS of change.org protests. His most interesting suggestion is that boys should be held back a year before starting school. His other suggestions involve mandated paternal leave.

Cheers

CL

Ben Harrap wrote:

I think everyone should read (or listen to the audiobook) of bell hooks' 'The Will to Change'. It seems especially relevant to this conversation. An excerpt from the blurb on goodreads:

"Everyone needs to love and be loved -- even men. But to know love, men must be able to look at the ways that patriarchal culture keeps them from knowing themselves, from being in touch with their feelings, from loving. In The Will to Change, bell hooks gets to the heart of the matter and shows men how to express the emotions that are a fundamental part of who they are -- whatever their age, marital status, ethnicity, or sexual orientation. With trademark candor and fierce intelligence, hooks addresses the most common concerns of men, such as fear of intimacy and loss of their patriarchal place in society, in new and challenging ways."

I cannot politely respond to that kind of stuff and say what I feel safely

That is the problem. Not what  you s ay. Maybe you exist the oppressed ivory towers that think they run our world where you can no longer speak freely and safely

In summary I think that  kind of stuff, especially from men is pathetic. I haven't given up all hope for our gender yet (should I say sex - maybe not)

However if too many have fallen for that narrative it may be too late

EDIT I will add what kind of world makes us have to think about everything we write to this extent, especially under our on names to protect our own wellbeing and feel safe day to day. I would like to expand on what I think of some of the more extreme feminist narratives over the years and what I regard as genuinely oppressive and adverse effects on the male gender or sex. Whatever. Any so-called revolution took a very reactionary turn in some circles. I will go  further and say adverse affects for the whole planet. Not just for those who identify as men or male. The reason for feeling that the world took a very dangerous (reactionary) turn in many areas is that so many were silenced under so-called progress, and untruths became the accepted narrative in too many parts of our lives. I will say no more I promise

Hi John

I am working on a considered and safe response to such a dangerous topic.

It involves possible links between the problems you mention and radical and maybe to a lesser extent Marxist approaches to feminism and how I believe (feel, think, hypothesise?) many statistical approaches may have played into that discourse in an adverse way.

I don't feel safe saying much more without more work. I've probably said too much already.

Note: I had considered also offering my support to some of those in the NHMRC thread but its not really my business

regards Duncan

Note 2: A few minor edits just to clarify my meaning